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Volt and Leaf will succeed, but Tesla S and Fisker Karma will not

It all comes down to simple math and tires give us a clue when it comes to comparing Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf to Tesla Model S and Fisker Karma.

Delorean and Tucker. What two things do these automakers have in common? First, they were beloved by many of their customers and each inspired groundbreaking models that shook up the automotive world in terms of technology and styling. Second, they were economically unviable and they are history. Tesla and Fisker, will go this way, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it is all doom and gloom.

Given the money spent by Fisker and Tesla (and the US taxpayer) to create supercars for the 1 percenters, an investor might expect a return at some point. But why should they? In the category they compete in there are many choices, all good ones by the way, and very few buyers. No business school graduate on the planet Earth would ever suggest putting a new product into a crowded, mature, marketplace is likely to bring success.

The fact that the Fisker and the Tesla are electric just makes the path to success harder for them after the first early adopters have their cars. Clooney and Bieber have one. Who’s next in the showroom? With a completely straight face auto writers and media outlets are claiming the Tesla Model S is priced for the mainstream. The car STARTS near $60K.

With the package buyers actually want the car is in the Porsche Panamera price range. Which, by the way, makes a hybrid version for the buyer who can’t sleep at night due to environmental guilt. A green car enthusiast with a horsepower fetish can have a Chevy Camaro SS and a Chevy Volt for the same price the Tesla S will actually retail for.

When Fiskers burst into flames in driveways, garages, and in lots, and when Consumer Reports tests the car and it breaks, the media does not actually slant away from the company maliciously. “Consumer Reports Tests Supercar and All Goes Well” is not news. “Consumer Reports Tests New Supercar That Won’t Go” is news. Defending a burning car with “hey other cars burst into flames just like this one” does not work for small companies.

It can work for big companies. Follow the logic. GM competes with Fisker. Fisker burns. Head of the NHTSA, appointed by the leader of the main shareholder of GM says – “look into that.” A Volt burns and the same conversation is something like “Hey, take care of that.” Neither is a conspiracy. Both are perfectly normal, honest reactions. One gets investigated. One gets dealt with.

Let’s set aside the electric versus gas debate for a moment and talk rubber. Rubber is one of the few things on a car that the automakers themselves almost never make, and the cost of tires is significant. Look at the Fisker Karma and you will see 22 inch rims with low profile sport tires. No mainstream sports-luxury car has ever been fitted with 22 inch wheels.

Fisker doesn’t expect to ever make any money off the Karma, but let’s pretend they did. Why add thousands of dollars in cost to the car for no good reason? Style? Perhaps, but many cars rely on style for sales. Look at Toyota’s Scion FR-S. Is it stylish? Hard to argue that it isn’t. Successful? Hard to argue it isn’t. In October Toyota sold 1,107 Scion FR-S vehicles.

That is about the same number of Fisker Karmas that have been sold – ever. How much did Toyota pay for the tires on those Scions? I can tell you there is a chance that Toyota paid nothing for those tires. Zip. “How?”, you might ask. Here is how. Toyota uses that exact same rubber on another car. That model sells 250,000 units per year, thus an even 1 million unit tire order to the manufacturer lucky enough to get that purchase order. That could be $50 million in sales for one model number.

Do you have any idea what a company will do to land an order that big? The answer is simple – everything legal and then if nobody’s looking... Do you think a manufacturer might, say throw in 4,000 free tires? That would equate to a 1.6% discount. That is the least they can expect. The discount is likely something near 20%, (plus many, many cocktails, trips to fun places in the company of fun people, and more goodies than most readers could dream about.

I was in high tech business to business sales for 20 years, and I speak from experience). Toyota is paying nothing for tires and Fisker is picking out huge gumballs that have never, ever been used on any other automobile and paying the sticker price. Who has the edge here in profitability and who has the edge when they go looking for investor capital? This same analogy applies when Fiat builds a Viper.

Vipers don’t have to pay for radio knobs and door handles. They just take the ones dropped on the floor when the Chrysler 300s are being built. Most of the parts of mainstream automobiles are ridiculously inexpensive - if you buy literally 1 million of them. Buy 4,000 and you place your order on Amazon and pay your own freight. The examples used here are two fun cars, but the same logic applies to the electric Volt and the Leaf which are made by huge companies with revenues ginormous enough to swallow electric car losses, but which can minimize those losses through commonality of parts and other methods.

So why did a successful genius like Elon, or a cool car-guy like Henrik decide to try the impossible? They didn’t. They wanted a project. They wanted to spend some of their money on something they were passionate about. If it succeeded economically, cool. But that wasn’t their main objective. They wanted to get the car built and prove a point. Successful guys like this are so good at so many parts of business, relationships, and technology, they can almost always achieve that goal – prove the point. Then the economics gets ugly when they try to sell more than the collector’s item volumes that the cars really justify.

There is also a second way to succeed financially, or at least recoup one’s losses. That is to mature your product to the 80% state and then sell it to a much larger competitor. Why do competitors buy companies? Many reasons including; Eliminating a product from a niche they choose to dominate, to secure part of the product’s technology portfolio, to satisfy regulators (“we need 5000 more electric cars fast, or we can no longer sell our trucks in California”), or in some cases they might just love the product and want to see it work. That hasn’t actually happened yet in the car industry, but there was a sniff of that in the Volt’s germination.

Real news would be “Elon Musk talking with GM’s Akerson at Starbucks.” Or “ Ford’s Alan Mulally seen dining with Henrik Fisker at Nobu. “ That is the story that will be written at some point and God I hope I break it. Dan Neil already has a Pulitzer. I just want one scoop!

Please see the update to this story at this link.


This article was inspired by our readers’ feedback. Thanks to Howard Marks and an anonymous reader who replied to David Herron’s recent Tesla stories writing “Now if GM and Ford would start doing the same would be a smart thing for them, and at the same time with the production capacity that GM or Ford have they would be able to bring the cost down to probably half and that would give enormous sales…”

John Goreham tweets at @JohnGoreham. Please, follow him and send tips.

Comments

Dan5 (not verified)    November 10, 2012 - 10:23PM

In reply to by John Goreham

So does NOT changing your oil on a normal car and NOT getting manufacturer recommended maintenance. Flat out if a service station does not have the expertise to do the service, and maybe not even the correct equipment. You can get it done there anyway, yes, it should void the warranty. Does the gas station down the street have someone trained in servicing EVs? Do they know what to do to not damage one.

You don't call a plumber to fix your refrigerator, same premise applies here, and if you did and he fixed it, I think most people would be a little leery about that fix. Chances are they voided the warranty by opening it up/

dsm363 (not verified)    November 8, 2012 - 8:41PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Of course Tesla sends out the performance model for the press to test. It is only 0-60 in 3.9 seconds with a 12-18" rollout.

You said yourself most people would buy the $70k range model which is 5.6 to 5.9 seconds depending on which battery pack is chosen. You are still calling that a supercar? Even if you are, you are getting a 'supercar' without with 15mpg efficiency.

Anonymous (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 2:38AM

In reply to by John Goreham

umm, you do realize the the only one that does that is the performance package, the other ones are mid 5s to mid 6s. If you think 0-60 in 6.5 is super car performance, I reckon firebirds, mustangs, camaros, A6, chargers and others are super cars. C'mon those aren't super cars nor is the model s. no one would call those super cars.

As much as Tesla owners would love to say they own a super car, the model s is just a fast car, to define it as a supercar is just plain dishonest

John Goreham    November 10, 2012 - 9:50AM

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

The passionate and well thought out comments regarding if the S is a supercar or not have changed my mind. You're right. It isn't a supercar. I was mistaken. From now on I will refer to the S as "The best car in the world." For example, "The US taxpayers are helping to fund an electric car that costs between $57,000.00 and $106,000.00, which is meant to be the best car in the world."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xuO4WV71ss

dsm363 (not verified)    November 10, 2012 - 10:49AM

In reply to by John Goreham

These kinda of 'taxpayers funding' comments destroy your credibility. Again, tax payers only pay if Tesla goes under. Yes, we are shareholders without votes as you said but if that is your criteria, we do that on a lot of things. Just because it is something you don't agree with doesn't make it less valuable. What about corn ethanol subsidizes, the $5 billion a year to the oil industry? These are order or magnitude more in dollars than Tesla's LOAN and that $5 billion per year will never be paid back since it is a tax break, not a loan. A little consistency in your argument would be helpful.

The 'best car in the world' is obviously a marketing push by Elon Musk and entirely subjective as no one car is the best car in the world for all people.

dsm363 (not verified)    November 10, 2012 - 1:03PM

In reply to by John Goreham

That might be an ideal but not sure a practical one. The private sector can only do so much. Some say we should leave hurricane relief to the private sector if you wanted to go that far. The government always picks winners and losers, it's just a matter of if you like which ones they are picking. Awarding a multibillion dollar contract to a defense contractor or something similar is picking a winner but some don't seem to have a problem with that. Providing a loan to a new American car company that is doing something innovative and bringing manufacturing to the US is valuable.

Two wrongs don't make a right but it doesn't make sense for Tesla to be forced to give up their low interest loan unless it truly is a level playing field. Saying Tesla is 'government funded' is the same as saying anything that gets tax breaks is government funded (non-profits, churches, oil companies, people getting child tax credits or mortgage deductions, almost any large industry....etc). Doing so would put them at an even larger competitive disadvantage. It just seems odd that people harp on the Tesla loan when it pales in comparison to the auto bailouts, Wall Street bailout and other extremely large government programs.

All I'm saying is while you may not like Tesla, they took advantage of a loan interest loan that was approved under Bush and they are starting to pay it back.

Dan5 (not verified)    November 10, 2012 - 10:46PM

In reply to by John Goreham

John,
Let's be clear, you used the "supercar" to illicit a class warfare and sensationalism in order to attempt to make your point. Unfortunately now that it has been proven wrong you decide to back pedal. You COULD have just called it a car, but decided "supercar" sounded better
One wonders what other points you would eventually concede. Let's face it your credibility was challenged and was proven wrong. If you can't even get the definition of a supercar correct (and lump the Acura NSX, Chevy Camaro, and Ford Mustang as supercars), one wonders the rest of the article if you think a mustang level car is a supercar.

Let's put it in a way that everyone can understand

If this was a math class, you say 2+2 =19 and then expect people to believe some extremely complex numerical theory that encompasses everything that you came up with- not bloody likely.

petero (not verified)    November 7, 2012 - 8:49PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Mr. Goreham, I agree that the Volt and Prius will survive, and the Fisker will probably not survive. I disagree with just about everything else in your article. Tesla will survive despite writers such as yourself. It is a magnificent automobile, the Karma isn't.

Have you seen the Tesla Model S and the Fremont Factory? Have you driven a Model S? The "S" and Fremont are amazing. The Federal loan was a loan not a gift, it is already started to be paid pack by Tesla. The Model S competes with luxury sedans like the BMW 5 Series, Mercedes E Series, Porsche Panamera, etc.- It is competitive with a comparable models. Comparing a $90k car with a $40k is not fair to your readers. Just like the early plazma televisions, early computers, VCRs, etc. they all were very expensive to start with.

The Model S is the first 21st Century Automobile. It is in a class by itself. Hybrids are a cheap way for the ICE manufacturers to squeeze an extra 25% economy out of a ICE. By the way, I hope the Volt does survive, I have read that they are losing $49K on every Volt sold!

Care to comment?

Aaron Turpen    November 8, 2012 - 10:02AM

In reply to by petero (not verified)

One big difference between all of these "high priced early models" and the Tesla/Fisker models: those electronics items were all made by big, established companies that could afford the losses until the product went mainstream. Tesla and Fisker are NOT big companies that can afford years worth of losses.

Anonymous (not verified)    November 8, 2012 - 10:42AM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

That's not necessarily true. If you look at most businesses, most start off when they are small catering to the higher end market and then trickle down to regular consumers. Profitability for Tesla should occur in Q1 2013 or at worst Q2 2013. Currently they have enough reservations and preorders to become profitable barring any catastrophic event.

In terms of the other EV manufacturers keep in mind that Tesla can get their cells much cheaper than either Nissan, Ford, GM or Fisker because Tesla is using consumer cells. Cost is around $250/kwhr, with everything estimated cost is $375/kwhr and selling it for around $500/kwhr. Substantial profit. No other PHEV or BEV manufacturer is remotely near that profit point, some are actually selling their batteries at a loss as compliance vehicles and still can not touch the $500/kwhr price point.

Plus you also have the dealerships that add a few thousand dollars to the price of the car which is avoided in the case of Tesla.

John Goreham    November 8, 2012 - 11:27AM

In reply to by petero (not verified)

In the article I mention the Camaro SS and the Volt sotrt of as an example of what one can buy for the csot of a Tesla S. I am not sure what you mean by "Comparing a $90K car to a $40K car is not fair." Do you mean the Tesla Model S costs $40K? According to the company they cost $57 to $77 base without added options.

petero (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 10:21AM

In reply to by John Goreham

Mr. Goreham. My remark about the unfairness of comparing a $40K car to a $90 was more about the 1% vs. 99% who buy these cars. The 1% will mostly buy that luxury car whether it be by BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, and of course now the Model S. At least now we have a suitable American car to compete for the 1%. If you check out the Tesla Forum, you will notice a number of Model S reservation holders currently drive Prii, Volts, Leaves, etc. They are waiting for their Model S to be built.

The fascinating aspect of the Model S is its' appeal to those seeking something different, green, and outside of the box by an outsider. I asked previously if you have driven a Model S. I have loved cars for too many years. I remember buying gas when it was 29 cents a gallon and smelled good (in a lethal way). If you have not driven an "S" you should, it is wonderfully different: quiet, smooth, quick, the interior is starkly modern.

Probably the most important contribution that Tesla and SpaceX will contribute is to wake up the sleeping giants to do a better job with what they have. Big ICE has too much invested in yesterdays technology. I was blown away when I read that Nissan spent $6 billion to convert a Versa into a Leaf. I doubt Mr. Musk spent anything close to that on TM and SpaceX combined!

JP (not verified)    November 7, 2012 - 9:31PM

In reply to by John Goreham

If you spent any time on the Tesla Motors Club forums you'd know that a large number of Model S buyers are not 1% ers, but are so blown away by the vehicle they are willing to stretch and spend more than they ever have on a vehicle. Almost anyone who has driven one feels the same way. That sounds very much like a product with a strong and growing market. Throw in the across the board enthusiastic reviews and your conclusions seem misguided, to say the least.
The Karma is another story and really has no relation the Tesla products.

John Goreham    November 8, 2012 - 4:37PM

In reply to by JP (not verified)

Stop righ there. There are not "A lot of Tesla S buyers." The company has only built 250 and from those many were and remain test models. There may be some potential S buyers who will drive it to college and ask for financial aid.. We'll see. Bear in mind, that in the article I point out that Tesla going away isn't all bad. You and I might one day be able to buy a Lexus Model S with a full Lexus Warranty.

Rob (not verified)    November 8, 2012 - 5:25PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Unless you seriously believe that the over 17,000 people who have put down a minimum $5,000 deposit to secure a production spot for a Model S aren't serious about going ahead with their purchase then there most certainly are a lot of Model S buyers.
Secondly by the end of October the company had built over 1,000 cars, not 250, they are producing about 250 cars a week at present.

Matthew (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 9:29AM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

Where do you get those numbers?

In September, AutoBlog said they were at 80 cars *bodies* a week. and their SEC paperwork said they'd produced 255 models as of Sept 2012. A Fox Business interview said they might reach 80 per week in September, but that they'd completed *40* the week prior. And the company said it had 13,000 reservations not 17,000.

Also, in their SEC filing, they indicated they'd lost $864.9 million since their founding. This is a TINY car company, not Ford or GM, who can lose a Billion or so without a worry...

Really - you're entitled to your enthusiasm, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

petero (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 10:55AM

In reply to by Matthew (not verified)

Matthew. I am not disputing the facts in your comment. But you are painting an inaccurate picture.

TM IS currently manufacturing 200 cars per week and in month or two increase that rate to 400. You only make a great first impression once and they were painfully slow at releasing the first cars in late June. On TM forum new owners are receiving VIN#s in the 900s. SEC paperwork is always conservative. TM will manufacture 2-3,000 cars by year's end. As of November 8 Tesla has world wide reservations for 14,796. My own estimate is TM will have orders of 21K by years end.

I am enthusiastic about the "S." I agree with you that inventing facts is wrong but many people do just that to make their point - including both Presidential Candidates (accidentally I am sure)! The only way a small car company can prosper is build compelling products that people want. Apple is an example of this. The Walkman was considered world class until the Ipod came to be. If you get a chance take a test drive in a Model S. I enthusiastically recommend it.

Matthew (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 11:40AM

In reply to by petero (not verified)

Well, then, the answer is simple: Let's watch the numbers and see what happens. As long as they have another 300 million (or keep getting DOE money?) then they'll be around. But at some point, losing a Billion isn't fun.

As for buying an electric car, I have absolutely no desire to own one, even a beautiful one. Nothing about them compel me. I'm not interested in consuming less oil, plugging it in at night or whatever. I am perfectly happy with beautifully powerful, convenient and simple supercars with gas powered engines.

With regards to a comparison to Apple, you might be on to something: If they perhaps moved the TM factor to China, we might actually get a useful, compelling and even more affordable product... now that would be a smart car indeed!

petero (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 6:51PM

In reply to by Matthew (not verified)

Matthew. We will see what happens - time will tell. TM will not be asking for a receiving any more "DOE money." I assume you also feel the same about Ford, GM, Nissan for applying for similar loans only for much larger amounts. Say what you will, Elon Musk, does know achieve maximum results on a tight budget. A good deal of that loan was used to purchase and outfit the Fremont CA factory.

I would like to know if you have driven an "S?" You may find, you can be happy with a beautifully powerful, convenient and simple supercar with" battery powered motor. I figure you haven't driven or even seen an "S." It is quick, incredibly quiet, beautiful in a Jaguar - Audi A7 way. What could be more convenient than plugging in your EV to charge at night while you are sleeping.

Your $80K BMW will consume about $75+ of gas every 300 miles (more or less depending on your right foot) and your utility bill skyrocket by $12 a week charging your "S" for the same distance. I don't see how you could object to saving $60+ a week. One other bonus, if your "S" has the supercharging capability, you can plug in to Tesla's Supercharging stations and in 30 minutes get a FREE 150 mile charge. Let me know when Big ICE gives you free gasoline on the interstate. I realize there are only 6 Supercharging stations (in CA) but there will be more.

Your most startling remark is your suggestion TM should relocate its' factory to China to create a really affordable, smart car. Indeed. Sorry to inform you, LUXURY cars are not particularly affordable, and we are talking about a luxury car. Do you not find even a modest amount of pride knowing that a car that received universal acclaim is made in the USA? Oops, I'm bad. Perhaps you are confusing Tesla with Fisker... they took the money and built their car in Finland.

In approximately 4 years TM will launch their Gen III sedan which will similar in size to a BMW 3 Series with a base price of $30-35K. That was always the plan. The "S" may not be a perfect car for everyone, but then again no car is. Are you "perfectly happy with (your) beautifully powerful, convenient and simple supercar( s) with gas powered engine(s)?" Is it made in China and is it a compelling product?

I have driven the "S," Jaguar, BMW, MB,Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, Bentley, and Rollers. Keep an open mind, drive an "S" you might reconsider.

petero (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 10:56AM

In reply to by Matthew (not verified)

Matthew. I am not disputing the facts in your comment. But you are painting an inaccurate picture.

TM IS currently manufacturing 200 cars per week and in month or two increase that rate to 400. You only make a great first impression once and they were painfully slow at releasing the first cars in late June. On TM forum new owners are receiving VIN#s in the 900s. SEC paperwork is always conservative. TM will manufacture 2-3,000 cars by year's end. As of November 8 Tesla has world wide reservations for 14,796. My own estimate is TM will have orders of 21K by years end.

I am enthusiastic about the "S." I agree with you that inventing facts is wrong but many people do just that to make their point - including both Presidential Candidates (accidentally I am sure)! The only way a small car company can prosper is build compelling products that people want. Apple is an example of this. The Walkman was considered world class until the Ipod came to be. If you get a chance take a test drive in a Model S. I enthusiastically recommend it.

petero (not verified)    November 8, 2012 - 6:10PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Mr. Goreham. Tesla is in the process of delivering VINs in the 900's. They have approx. 14,000 deposits for the Model S and by the end of the year the waiting list will top 20K (my estimate).

Unlike your article, virtually every auto-press person who has driven or tested the "S" has nothing but praise - enthusiastic praise. Which leads me to the questions ... have you driven an "S," have you seen the Fremont CA factory?

John Goreham    November 9, 2012 - 4:32PM

In reply to by petero (not verified)

Like most automotive writers we have not yet seen any of the 250 units that have been completed. Before we get off on the wrong track, I LOVE the Tesla Models S. I am being harried by readers for having called it a supercar. I think the car is absolutely amazing. The article is about can the company that makes this car survive. I will debate that point, but I can't debate the car - I just love it. I love the Fisker too, which I have driven. Wonderful car - but not for the cost.
Actually I have done a lot of business in Freemont, CA and I have been by the NUMMI plant. Former NUMMI plant. I am pretty sure that is where they make the Tesla now. Is that correct? I may be mistaken. 250 cars over 6 months could be build in a small workshop like one thsat Fisker uses. If so, I do know that they used to make literally thousands of compact, fuel efficient, and very low cost cars there per month in a GM/Toyota partnership. I also know why the plant was killed. The UAW didn't like it. And as one of the largest shareholders at GM they really don't have to do anything they don't want to do anymore.
So, if I am right, we took away a factory that made thousands of fuel efficient affordable cars and replaced it with a factory that makes cars that range in price from $57K to $106K. And depending upon who you beleive - Elon Musk (who says 250 were delivered to customers, and 1000 frames are done), or some TN readers, maybe 900 vehicles total are now built.

Rob (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 7:51PM

In reply to by John Goreham

I think Tesla is confusing to automotive analysts and journalists because they are going about this so differently to the other players. The production ramp up is the perfect example. Automotive people see it as an indicator of major trouble of some kind because the norm is to rapidly ramp to full rate production. However the IT crowd seethe idea of limited release and beta testing followed by a ramp up to full release as entirely normal. I think with a new novel product it is an incredibly wise way to go as the company would be unlikely to survive if some issue was only identified after 10,000+ cars were shipped and they were forced to conduct a recall. The reality is that that are rapidly heading towards 1,000-1,500 cars per month now that the initial ramp has occurred. They got an incredibly good deal on the former Nummi plant and whilst much larger then there current needs they are not producing at Fisker like boutique rates even now and will only increase production into the foreseeable future. Once they release their model x and then their 3rd generation $30-50k sedan I think their future proofing in buying a facility with surplus capacity will pay dividends for them.

petero (not verified)    November 9, 2012 - 8:29PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Dear Mr. Goreham. As you may have guessed, I too love the "S." I am not so crazy about the Karma but that is another discussion for another article. The "S" is manufactured at the old Nummi plant in the shadows of Camaros, Firebirds, Vibes-Matrix, and trucks. I have visited the Tesla Factory and the word HUGE is an understatement. Then again being able to buy the factory for about $42M was perhaps too good to pass up. I sincerely doubt that TM will ever need so much room.

Your point about the future of TM can always be applied to any new car company or new technology. Auto manufacturing is incredibly expensive, requires deep pockets. I think TM is viable as they only need to manufacture and sell 8K "S" to become profitable. The car I most want is the Gen III which about 4 years down the road. My big concern is how long Elon Musk wants to be "house rich and cash poor?" I understand that MB has the first right of refusal

Simply put, the "S" is the first 21st Century Automobile to manufactured. A fresh design - a clean piece of paper. I have seen several "S" in the wild and driven one. Wow. YOU REALLY NEED TO DRIVE AN "S," the test drive is free but it will cost you big time to commit.

JP (not verified)    November 8, 2012 - 6:44PM

In reply to by John Goreham

Your data is as outdated as your conclusions John. There are more than 250 cars delivered and the customers I'm talking about are the 14,000 that have reserved cars and put down deposits. A large percentage of those people are not 1%'s, have never purchased any car in this price range and are making a financial stretch to do so. I have no idea what a student loan has to do with this discussion, and I'm not sure you've provided any reason a Lexus Model S would be better than a Tesla Model S. Tesla has done what no OEM could, or would. I expect them to continue to do so.

John Goreham    November 8, 2012 - 9:38PM

In reply to by JP (not verified)

My data is a direct quote from the company's head, Elon Musk, and I dated the quote (and supplied a link). The latest news from Tesla (from Tesla) this week is they have now completed their 1000th frame for model S units. The most recent forecast for this year is a little over 3,000 units. Down from 5000. You can call me ugly, or say my mother dresses me funny. But you can't beat up my data.